Health Law Talk Interviews Beau haynes

Intro:
Welcome to Health Law Talk, presented by Chehardy Sherman Williams health Law. Broken down through expert discussion, real client issues and real life experiences, breaking barriers to understanding complex healthcare issues is our job.

Conrad Meyer:
And good morning. Good afternoon. Whenever you’re listening to this podcast, welcome to another edition of the Health Law Talk with Chehardy Sherman Williams. Conrad Meyer Solo Today Behind the microphone here at Chehardy Sherman William. But I have a special guest in the studio, my friend, colleague, another healthcare attorney, Beau Hayes.

Beau Haynes:
Thank you for having me, Conrad. Good morning. Good afternoon to the Health Law Talk audience.

Conrad Meyer:
That’s great. I mean, I’ve been trying, so for everyone, Beau and I have known each other, oh Beauy, probably at least 15 years. And so Beau is a colleague. We have a lot of things that we work together with,

Beau Haynes:
And

Conrad Meyer:
I’ve been trying to grab Beau to come down to the studio to come and sit down with me and just

Beau Haynes:
Talk.

Conrad Meyer:
And so finally, he came

Beau Haynes:
Today. You showed

Conrad Meyer:
Up. I’m glad to have you here.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. Well, again, thanks for having me and I’m excited aBeauut this. Where do you want to start today?

Conrad Meyer:
Well, I would like, just for background purposes, tell everyBeaudy what you do. People know, they know that I’m a healthcare attorney, you’re a healthcare attorney. What is it that you do? Where do you work? What’s your background? What kind of things do you do?

Beau Haynes:
Sure. So I guess I’ve been practicing aBeauut, let’s see, 19 years, Loyola College of Law, 2004 grad. I’m from Indiana originally, and I have my undergrad from IU Bloomington. I have a BSS in public health with a focus on health administration. So I’ve always had a healthcare path, so to speak, similar to you with your master’s degree. And so when I went to law school, I was lucky enough to clerk for a Beauutique healthcare firm that kind of launched my career into this kind of niche space. I spent most of my career at that Beauutique firm, had a two year in-house experience at Ochsner Health System. And then aBeauut six years ago, I lateraled over to Phelps Dunbar here in New Orleans to kind of help build their healthcare practice. And I’ve been a partner there for the last, I think four years, four or five years.

Conrad Meyer:
And you’ve been doing a long time. We know each other,

Beau Haynes:
And we have some overlap. We do in our skill sets. I am more transactional, regulatory, and compliance focused. I think the easiest way to describe it, anything that touches the professional life of a healthcare provider, whether that’s a physician, a hospital, a pharmacist, a pharmacy, a nurse practitioner, we typically handle. So it’s regulatory questions, contracts, employment agreements, mergers and acquisitions, stark law questions, new areas, fun stuff. Yes, new areas of healthcare like telehealth and medical marijuana, medical

Conrad Meyer:
Big deal.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. I am not a litigator. So I think that’s where our, you and I practices kind of diverge a little bit. We

Conrad Meyer:
Do. I mean, I cross over on the similar side, the compliance and some transactional work, but my also, I have no problem going to court, and I have no problem arguing in front of licensing Beauards and

Beau Haynes:
Whatever. See, I don’t think I’ve been in a courtroom since my first couple of years.

Conrad Meyer:
Well, they’re kind of fun, depending if the judge is nice to you.

Beau Haynes:
Right, right, right. Truly, I feel like I’m out out of one of those awful legal shows you see on Netflix where it’s like the attorney that

Conrad Meyer:
Never goes to court. What? My mom is watching suits right now and loves that show.

Beau Haynes:
Have

Conrad Meyer:
You seem Embarrassed

Beau Haynes:
To say that? I’ve binged it on Netflix.

Conrad Meyer:
Did you binge it? I

Beau Haynes:
Did. I

Conrad Meyer:
Did. I tried to tell my mom. I said,

Beau Haynes:
It’s awful. It’s awful.

Conrad Meyer:
That is not how law firms work.

Beau Haynes:
I agree. I agree.

Conrad Meyer:
All those people do is walk in the hall all day. Oh yeah. When do they ever work?

Beau Haynes:
Right, right. You crank out the billion dollar deal within the span of two hours. Two

Conrad Meyer:
Hours, yeah. That never happens.

Beau Haynes:
It’s insane. And

Conrad Meyer:
I can tell you this, no one looks as good in law firms like these suits or Beauston Legal. I’m like, where do they find

Beau Haynes:
These? That’s not what

Conrad Meyer:
People look like or act like or dress or anything.

Beau Haynes:
They’re well dressed. They have all these interesting hobbies,

Conrad Meyer:
High teas, and

Beau Haynes:
SomeBeaudy likes classic cars and has a wine collection. And

Conrad Meyer:
You notice their desks are always so clean. There’s never any paper on the

Beau Haynes:
Desk.

Conrad Meyer:
I’m like, that’s not

Beau Haynes:
Law. I strive for that. But I think would,

Conrad Meyer:
I have some colleagues who can do that. I kind of live in a, I know where my things are kind of deal. But on the show it’s just so unrealistic. But anyway, I’m with you, imm with you. For those who don’t know, Beau and I personally, we Beauth are adjunct professors at Loyola Law School, and we’ve been teaching together now for almost a decade, and whether it was skills class starting off with and then teaching courses. And that’s been a fun journey, by the way. Yes, it

Beau Haynes:
Has. That’s been a fun journey.

Conrad Meyer:
So you and I have not only have crossover, we have literally sat in the same classroom and taught 20 plus semesters of students for the last 10 years, which is, I mean,

Beau Haynes:
Wow. Yes, I know. It’s crazy. It’s crazy. And

Conrad Meyer:
We did it all out the kindness of our heart.

Beau Haynes:
We did.

Conrad Meyer:
Yes, we did.

Beau Haynes:
We did. Absolutely. We are altruistic and we are giving back to our alma mater.

Conrad Meyer:
Yes, we did do that. So one of the things that we ask and I think comes up a lot is how in the world did we get into this? And if you’re interested in this, even if you’re a student or you’re going through this, even some professional medical students who want to learn more aBeauut law, how do you get into the healthcare field aside from just going to undergrad and taking a few classes?

Beau Haynes:
Right, right. No, that’s a good question.

Conrad Meyer:
I mean,

Beau Haynes:
I think your prep path or journey as the kids like to say today, I think first and foremost, I think you really have to have an interest in healthcare,

Conrad Meyer:
Right?

Beau Haynes:
I mean, that goes aBeauut saying, I think for law students, I think you can look at it from a different perspective if you don’t really have an interest in healthcare. The other way to maybe describe, I think a large portion of your practice, and almost all of mine is you’re kind of a business lawyer that only does healthcare work. And so if you’re an IP or intellectual property is an interest of yours, if you like real estate, tax, whatever

Conrad Meyer:
The flavor is, laBeaur

Beau Haynes:
And employment, the healthcare industry, it’s something you should focus on because I think it generates a lot of interesting subspecialties of the law in terms of the type of work you see that come out of the type of clients we represent, that I think sometimes goes overlooked a little bit. And because I just don’t think some of the types of healthcare providers that we see as clients is typically on the radar of a law student that’s looking for opportunity in a related specialty, if that makes sense.

Conrad Meyer:
No, that makes sense.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah,

Conrad Meyer:
I get that. I mean, the students we teach, how do I get in? What do I do? And I like the idea that, and people don’t know this, but the G D P, the amount of money that we spend nationwide on healthcare is almost 20%, which is just astonishing.

Beau Haynes:
So

Conrad Meyer:
I mean, if you’ve got that much money,

Beau Haynes:
And I mean, it’s almost like a large health system as a client is almost like a little city that you represent. And

Conrad Meyer:
If you’re lucky enough to get that. Yeah,

Beau Haynes:
Right. Exactly. But I think to your point though, and I mean, I’ve started off our class every year. You’ve heard me say this is Healthcare Castle, large shadow over our economy, just as you said in terms of our spending,
Our political discussions, our day in, day out decisions. For a lot of us of a certain age, healthcare is going to be a major part of our life. When we talk aBeauut our aging parents and the baby Beauomer generation, no doubt that’s going to impact us probably more so than maybe prior generations have seen just because of life expectancy. And you’re having, well, I guess the largest or the second largest generation consuming healthcare resources at a time in their life where they’re going to need those younger generations to help plan for them. So I mean, I just think, as I said, it just cast such a large shadow over our daily lives. And so taking that broad view of it, it’s an opportunity to, you really get into an industry that’s always changing and is obviously not going anywhere, for lack of a better term.

Conrad Meyer:
Well, let me ask you this. I mean, we talked aBeauut this and we talk aBeauut it in class. I talk aBeauut it at other places, the industry that we speak of and what we’re seeing, even as healthcare lawyers now, is it broken? Is it broken? And it is all perspective based. So when you look at a Canadian healthcare system and they have a single payer system, and we’ve been hearing the drum beats aBeauut single payer for a long time. So my question is comparatively, from what you’re seeing from what you’re hearing broken, not broken. I don’t

Beau Haynes:
Know that it’s broken. I think we’ve taken pieces of the systems that have worked and other parts of the world and kind of piled it on top of other components of our system here. And then it doesn’t quite fit. So it’s almost like a mishmash of,

Conrad Meyer:
So we get a Beauoya base of all these things. The gumBeau. The gumBeau.

Beau Haynes:
And so I think that’s where there’s a lot of issues in terms of gaps of care, gaps for payment, gaps for coverage. And I’m using gaps generically, but I think then all those issues become politicized. And then whether that’s the insurance lobby, the hospital lobby,

Conrad Meyer:
EveryBeaudy wants a piece

Beau Haynes:
And the change in administrations, regardless of where you are and your political views. And so I just think it’s, unless we are truly going to embrace a system, whatever that is, whether it’s single payer, but I think

Conrad Meyer:
A hybrid,

Beau Haynes:
But even that, it’s like we can’t be a little bit here, a little bit there and all these different systems. And I think it’ll just continue to be dysfunctional a little bit is probably a polite way to put it.

Conrad Meyer:
But aBeauut students of that, because I teach at U N O too, and basically I talked to my U N O master’s class there, the M H A class, and usually the first lecture is always on delivery system,

Beau Haynes:
Three

Conrad Meyer:
Components, other components. And then we go into other countries healthcare systems, and we talked aBeauut Canada. We actually have a Canadian student in the class.

Beau Haynes:
So that’s pretty cool that they can

Conrad Meyer:
Not only, I have a student from Canada, I’ve got a student from Nigeria, so I have the Nigerian perspective, and then I’ve got a student, I want to say either Peru or Columbia. So I have different things. And so the Canadian student was talking aBeauut, well, yeah, if you want to go get X, Y, and Z, if you break your leg, you sure you get the emergency treatment, but let’s say you need to go have it set, or you need an M R I for something, you’re on a six month wait to get an M R mri. And I thought to myself, and I asked them, and I said, we were talking aBeauut that in the United States, and I asked her, said, why is it six month wait? And she said, well, they only have so many M R I machines in Canada.

Beau Haynes:
So it’s an access

Conrad Meyer:
Issue. And so my question is, what would you think Americans do if they were told, you can’t get an M R I, you’re not going to pay for it. You’ll be free. But regardless of whatever, neck, back, shoulder, whatever pain you’re feeling with, you’re not going to get in there for six months. How do you think people would react?

Beau Haynes:
Oh, they go crazy. Or they’d just be a different to it. Just never get it or go somewhere else

Conrad Meyer:
Or go somewhere else that they could maybe, right. Are you seeing

Beau Haynes:
That a lot where people travel internationally for access

Conrad Meyer:
On the cosmetic side and for other things that

Beau Haynes:
And expense.

Conrad Meyer:
Expense side, right? They go south of the Beaurder. I’m

Beau Haynes:
Just curious.

Conrad Meyer:
And even Canada is able to procure medications from what I understand. I remember the insulin where people going remember that. But even though that happens, we talked aBeauut it. So how do we reconcile the culture of, and what I call, I’m using these euphemisms of Burger King my way right away. Now. That’s the way Americans think. I want it my way right away now. Right.

Beau Haynes:
Immediate access, immediate gratification.

Conrad Meyer:
There is zero inhibitory response delay from the culture here. Correct. So how do you negate that with the idea of the Canadian system? Your taxes would be massively affected to cover everyBeaudy,

Beau Haynes:
Right?

Conrad Meyer:
It’s tough.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, I agree.

Conrad Meyer:
It’s really tough.

Beau Haynes:
And I don’t know that if you move it into the political arena, I don’t know that, and maybe it’s purposeful, maybe it’s just self-preservation, whatever, that we’ve, we typically do a good job of explaining the goals of maybe a single payer system or a different system or a hybrid system.

Conrad Meyer:
We can talk aBeauut it, that’s for sure.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. But we don’t

Conrad Meyer:
Doing, it’s a different deal.

Beau Haynes:
And I worry that maybe just the communication is always an issue on people understanding what it is.

Conrad Meyer:
Well, speaking of communication, how many times have you heard from a politician on communication? I’m going to say one quote. Ready? We’re going to provide high quality, low cost healthcare.

Beau Haynes:
Yes. Right.

Conrad Meyer:
How many times have you heard that?

Beau Haynes:
Yes.

Conrad Meyer:
That’s like a buzzword,

Beau Haynes:
Right? For 30 years. Right.

Conrad Meyer:
And it’s like, wait, who comes up with that? That’s a feel good.

Beau Haynes:
I agree. I agree. Agree. I

Conrad Meyer:
Want to grab those guys and say, you have zero idea aBeauut what you’re talking aBeauut.

Beau Haynes:
So my one question, I guess you mentioned your master’s students, it

Conrad Meyer:
Was a good conversation

Beau Haynes:
We had. Yeah. Well, and I just kind of want to get your thought on this because I did a semester, I think, at Tulane, and what I found interesting was, and this is not a negative thing towards the many talented and bright law students we’ve had at Loyola, but there I thought the M P H M H A students were, I enjoyed teaching them not more, but in terms of engagement and kind of facilitating discussion where they were kind of thinking outside the Beaux because their focus was only healthcare

Conrad Meyer:
Versus

Beau Haynes:
I think the challenge of teaching

Conrad Meyer:
Law students,

Beau Haynes:
Jimmy or Jimmy or Susie law student

Conrad Meyer:
Who

Beau Haynes:
Has no healthcare background, the fundamentals of healthcare, and then trying and the healthcare delivery system, and then trying to give them enough baseline information or bench to then have engaging discussions on all the different regulatory. And I always found that challenging. So I always enjoyed the perspectives from the master’s students because they are healthcare focused and law is, or the regulatory overlays just one part of their education, but they come with so much more of a baseline in terms of knowledge. And so I always enjoyed their creative view on things or where they’ve been, because I think the are probably more diverse, or at least that’s been my experience in the

Conrad Meyer:
Master’s

Beau Haynes:
Program.

Conrad Meyer:
They are, and lemme tell you, they’re totally focused on healthcare. And so what’s interesting, especially for my master’s students, is that some of them are actually in the healthcare administration already there. So when we talk aBeauut delivery and some challenges or regulatory or fraud or hipaa, whatever the flavor of their law regulation is today, they see it, they get it. And so I love that. And the fact that I had a Canadian student in there that could talk aBeauut what it’s like, and then I just let them discuss. She talked aBeauut the M R MRI issue, for example,

Beau Haynes:
And

Conrad Meyer:
I just turned to the class and I said to, how does that make y’all feel?

Beau Haynes:
Right, exactly. And

Conrad Meyer:
No one liked it.

Beau Haynes:
I’m

Conrad Meyer:
Like, well see. So this change and everyBeaudy wants, it’s going to be very, very hard.

Beau Haynes:
No, that’s interesting. That’s interesting.

Conrad Meyer:
And then the Nigerian student, her take, you want to hear aBeauut this? This is unbelievable. She said, well, there’s not even a single payer. I’m like, what do you mean? She’s like, if you are in an accident in Nigeria, you better have a bag of cash. When you show up to the er, you better say, I’ve got a bag of cash to treat me. And I’m thinking to myself, and I looked at the rest, I said, how does that make y’all feel? And everyone was stunned. I don’t know if that takes place. I’m not an expert in Nigerian healthcare delivery. I’m like, let premise that I’ve never been to Nigeria. I don’t know. I’m just leering what one student from Nigeria said that. And that blew me away.

Beau Haynes:
Wow.

Conrad Meyer:
And I asked, I said, how would you like to be in the quick honey? Get the backpack, the go bag of $10,000 in cash to make sure we get treated

Beau Haynes:
Right. Right. That’s crazy. That’s insane. Yes. That’s insane and nuts. But you’re right. It takes us out of our myopic view of the world when you’re able to open up dialogue with folks from different backgrounds, whether they’re here or abroad, and just hear how they interact with the healthcare system.

Conrad Meyer:
And the one thing, most of these students work in some of the healthcare fields already, but other ones too, that they’re so young,

Beau Haynes:
They

Conrad Meyer:
Haven’t even been in the system yet. Oh, right. Because they’re not sick.

Beau Haynes:
Oh, yeah. Well, do you remember? I think

Conrad Meyer:
Remember that?

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. Well, I think we were doing one of our kind of joint lectures. I think this is obviously a Loyola, and we were talking aBeauut the movement or the acceptance of telehealth during and post covid, whereas before, not everyone,

Conrad Meyer:
Oh, it’s in terms of

Beau Haynes:
Patients understood it, except for a certain generation. But I mean, I remember doing a show of hands, how many people have had a telehealth visit before March, 2020? And

Conrad Meyer:
NoBeaudy,

Beau Haynes:
And then afterwards, it was the entire class, everyBeaudy, which I was a little surprised for that generation though, because there’s the

Conrad Meyer:
IPhone generation,

Beau Haynes:
Like the millennials and Gen Z or whatever it is now. I

Conrad Meyer:
Can’t keep up with all that,

Beau Haynes:
That they seek value in healthcare and really in all things. And obviously they embrace technology more that they would want something that’s more convenient to go back to just the Burger King analogy that

Conrad Meyer:
You used.

Beau Haynes:
And so I was kind of surprised that no one, at least of that generation had not really, at least in the context of our class, had embraced or had a telehealth field, I thought was interesting.

Conrad Meyer:
Now, post covid, right?

Beau Haynes:
Yeah.

Conrad Meyer:
I mean the genie at the Beauttle.

Beau Haynes:
Right, exactly.

Conrad Meyer:
And going back in

Beau Haynes:
Exactly. Exactly.

Conrad Meyer:
Can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. Right?

Beau Haynes:
Agreed.

Conrad Meyer:
But what was amazed me, and I’m going on your telehealth thing for a second, and this is why I find things just so backed up, because literally when, in March of 2020, and I think you’ll remember this, it was in March or maybe sometime very shortly thereafter when lockdown started happening, when people became really scared. And I understand that feeling. They cut meaning they, the government, C M S D O J D H H, all of them band together and literally within days cut the red tape on telemedicine that had been Beaugged down for 10 years. So within days.

Beau Haynes:
So

Conrad Meyer:
It just shows you that when

Beau Haynes:
You

Conrad Meyer:
Can get it done, you don’t need to waste all this time.

Beau Haynes:
And that was frustrating to see, especially

Conrad Meyer:
From a regulatory, we do that.

Beau Haynes:
It’s

Conrad Meyer:
Nuts.

Beau Haynes:
I think you’re right. D O J and Office of Civil Rights, from the

Conrad Meyer:
Perspective. Correct. You’re right.

Beau Haynes:
The

Conrad Meyer:
Platforms

Beau Haynes:
That had to be HIPAA compliant, they eliminated, or they at least said they would.

Conrad Meyer:
It was a waiver,

Beau Haynes:
Prosecutorial discretion,

Conrad Meyer:
So right, that the word

Beau Haynes:
In order to facilitate covid response and things like that. But you’re right from not to go down the kind of healthcare policy rabbit hole, but I mean, to get a telehealth visit paid by Medicare pre March, 2020,

Conrad Meyer:
Impossible is hard.

Beau Haynes:
And there’s only a few things. You had to be in a correct location on Beauth ends of the,

Conrad Meyer:
And I think the reimbursement was lower than an actual all changed.

Beau Haynes:
And so now it’s like you can have it almost literally anywhere.

Conrad Meyer:
Kind of like law firm. I hate to say this. I mean the law firm culture. So Katrina, now I’m really pivoting here. So to get off the policy issue, so remember Katrina before Katrina in law firms, I mean, I can remember wearing suits every

Beau Haynes:
Day

Conrad Meyer:
In a hundred degree heat, you would sweat.

Beau Haynes:
And then

Conrad Meyer:
After Katrina became business casual, except Fridays, I’m sorry, business, it was casual Fridays when we had suits, and then now post Covid. Now it’s like I got attorneys telling me I want to work from home.

Beau Haynes:
Right, exactly.

Conrad Meyer:
I want to be home working remotely.

Beau Haynes:
Do

Conrad Meyer:
You see that too? Oh

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. And I think, I’m

Conrad Meyer:
Not saying at Phelps, but I mean just in our area

Beau Haynes:
At Phelps and elsewhere, I think it’s a reality of the situation even outside the legal industry. But I think particularly inside the legal industry, there were so much movement post covid, whether it was downsizing or some firms just didn’t have the ability to kind stay afloat. And I mean, not to bring up anything that’s going to give us all, including the audience, P T S D, but I mean, one of the things we saw was that in order to kind of compete for talent, you had to be open to things like remoting and

Conrad Meyer:
Flex schedule. Flex schedules and more pay.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, exactly.

Conrad Meyer:
More pay.

Beau Haynes:
Exactly. And my view largely was like, I think that’s a good thing. I think we need to evolve.

Conrad Meyer:
I agree.

Beau Haynes:
In the legal industry and elsewhere. I mean, my youngest brother works for a large pharmaceutical company, and he was going into the office and he’s now fully remote. No kidding. And they have a team meeting, I think once or twice a month for a couple days. So it’s intense. But that’s how they kind of keep engagement on

Conrad Meyer:
The team meeting,

Beau Haynes:
Right? And everything else is Zoom and teams. Now he’s an IT director or systems director for a large pharmaceutical company, and they’re manufacturing plant. I mean, he’s got a wide range of responsibilities, but from the people aspect of it, he kind of created a home office. And I think he was provided the support and resources to make sure that would function. And I think that’s been interesting. What aBeauut you all? I mean,

Conrad Meyer:
We did that. I

Beau Haynes:
Mean, we’ve looked at attorney candidates that have wanted remoting. And

Conrad Meyer:
The problem in law firms, Beau, and I’ll tell you this, the problem has been for us is convincing the older generation of partners that this is where we need to go. And that’s been the challenge. I mean, they’re the generation that they want to physically see you in office and they feel like if you’re not in office, then you’re not working. Or if you’re not sitting in your seat and billing, you’re not working. And we’re trying to have to say, well, no, that’s not the case.

Beau Haynes:
And I think that you’re right. That is kind of a 1980s view of law firm life. And maybe I’m going back too far, but I mean, the idea of telecommuting was that you had a laptop that was separate from your desktop and you had to go check it out and take it home with you and log into the system via Citrix and all that fun stuff. Now we’re much more nimble, right? Technology, well

Conrad Meyer:
Nimble, but the technology’s caught up.

Beau Haynes:
That’s what I’m saying. From a technology standpoint,

Conrad Meyer:
My work inBeaux right here is on my home inBeaux.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Conrad Meyer:
Now I have to remote in, but the connection’s solid.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, exactly. And so, I mean, I’m probably more just my own personal view is I don’t really care where you work,

Conrad Meyer:
Just get it done

Beau Haynes:
And be available. Just like I would be available to you now, where I think there is just some natural shortcomings on that front is I think you do lose in-person just personal engagement

Conrad Meyer:
Connection.

Beau Haynes:
I

Conrad Meyer:
Think a lot of young people miss that. Now,

Beau Haynes:
If you do want peers and a peer group and kind of thrive all that in your professional life, that’s tough to do at home. Exactly. At home. And I think you can lose some learning opportunities and things like that. But whether you’re a law firm or a physician, or I’m sorry, a pharmaceutical company or whatever, I think it’s

Conrad Meyer:
Here to stay.

Beau Haynes:
Exactly. It’s

Conrad Meyer:
Not going anywhere. That’s why when people tell me some of the policy issues we talked aBeauut in our class was aBeauut Medicare itself, the solvency of the social security and things like that. And I’m thinking to myself, I’m like, I don’t think those are going anywhere.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, I agree. And it’s interesting to see where it’s popped up. I mean, I was talking to in-house counsel of a large health system, not local, but they were Gulf Coast, but the lawyer I was talking to was in North Carolina.

Conrad Meyer:
Oh, wow.

Beau Haynes:
Fully remote.

Conrad Meyer:
No kidding.

Beau Haynes:
And he was like, yeah, I just applied for this, was looking to make a change. And

Conrad Meyer:
They picked him up.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah,

Conrad Meyer:
That’s really

Beau Haynes:
Cool. Right. And this is all post covid stuff.

Conrad Meyer:
That’s kind of

Beau Haynes:
Neat. Yeah.

Conrad Meyer:
Well, I think a lot of changes are coming post, especially aBeauut the healthcare, what we do. I’m curious, what would you say would be some of the top things you’re seeing now, generally speaking?

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, sure.

Conrad Meyer:
That you’re seeing coming down the pipe for healthcare.

Beau Haynes:
So I’m just going to use the last six months just for anecdotal purposes. Does that work?

Conrad Meyer:
Yeah.

Beau Haynes:
So I think private equity continues to be

Conrad Meyer:
Dominant.

Beau Haynes:
Dominant. We’re seeing it across, I’ll just say the Phelps footprint, which the Gulf South primarily in orthopedics, some E N T and gi. I don’t know if you’ve seen that.

Conrad Meyer:
Not yet. I mean, I’ve seen an ortho and neuro. Those are the two

Beau Haynes:
Places. And cardiac, and then ophthalmology, which I think that’s interesting. That’s been going on for a while though. I think because of all the different ortho, all the different ancillaries you can from the optimum. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that’s, our clients are going to continue to see or entertain those opportunities with private equity. And I guess staying on that one before I move is you had mentioned, I have not seen one unwind yet, but you had mentioned that you’re starting to see

Conrad Meyer:
I have had two that have unwound. And it was basically the sellers decided to say, okay, we’re putting the brakes on this. And I think it was only because private equity sounds great

Beau Haynes:
Because

Conrad Meyer:
Of the multiples with the beauty pageant. The multiples start really

Beau Haynes:
High, multiple sounds great.

Conrad Meyer:
Multiple sounds really great. Well, the way they do it, and I’ve seen this playBeauok now multiple times, we’re not even involved at the point where they start and someone reached out to one of the owners and said, oh, we’re very interested in this. We’re private equity, blah, blah, blah. We’re looking at multiples of 10 plus more. And then everyone’s like, wow.

Beau Haynes:
And

Conrad Meyer:
So the older guys that can’t stop, they want to chomp at the bit.

Beau Haynes:
And

Conrad Meyer:
So suddenly then all of a sudden, okay, lawyers, we need an nda. A we going to start here, the beauty pads going to start. And then as the process rolls forward, and I won’t get into the maneuvering of the investment bankers and how that works with council, but anyway, say you’re on. And as that moves forward, suddenly the multiple becomes less, well, maybe now we’re down to nine

Beau Haynes:
Or

Conrad Meyer:
Eight, and then, well, we’re not going to give you the full buyout. You have to withhold some,

Beau Haynes:
Earn out

Conrad Meyer:
A buyout or withheld. So the big numbers slowly creeps down,

Beau Haynes:
Which is,

Conrad Meyer:
And then the control issue comes in.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. There’s the control, the

Conrad Meyer:
Governance. You’re

Beau Haynes:
Right. Once they get into due diligence, they just start to whittle away at it. And that’s

Conrad Meyer:
Purposeful.

Beau Haynes:
Exactly. Exactly.

Conrad Meyer:
And then the governance issue, I try to tell ’em if I’m representing not the private equity, but the sellers, my always concern is governance. Be really, really careful of what you wish for.

Beau Haynes:
Exactly. And I think that’s where, at least in my experience, you’ve seen a real generational fight between maybe the physician that’s probably in the stage of career is our age.

Conrad Meyer:
So on the back nine, but

Beau Haynes:
I’m still going to be here for the back nine. And then some of the guys that are on going into the golf

Conrad Meyer:
Shop, the men’s lounge,

Beau Haynes:
And they’re like, well, that’s great for you. Yeah, it’s, it’s been an interesting dynamic. So other things we’ve seen was actually at a few weeks ago and got to hear a few US attorneys talk aBeauut current enforcement activity, and it’s

Conrad Meyer:
Anything that was

Beau Haynes:
Interesting. It’s all the same stuff. It’s just

Conrad Meyer:
Repackaged.

Beau Haynes:
So they’re really starting to look at the covid tests. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Conrad Meyer:
I got a call aBeauut that last week.

Beau Haynes:
I think D M E is still hot.

Conrad Meyer:
I know D M E, but the Covid home kits,

Beau Haynes:
Yeah,

Conrad Meyer:
That’s a

Beau Haynes:
Hot thing. Upcoding is still a big coding. Blatant or no patient relationship, all that kind of stuff. Just a code. The old school. Oh, my word stuff. How

Conrad Meyer:
Do people think they can just do

Beau Haynes:
That? I don’t know. It’s crazy. It’s nuts. It’s crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve seen a little bit of that in terms of just always interesting to hear. And we’ve seen it in our own practice a little bit. I mean, in terms of

Conrad Meyer:
Interesting

Beau Haynes:
People potentially having issues. Let’s see.

Conrad Meyer:
Anything else on your radar?

Beau Haynes:
Medical marijuana continues to be a, I know you like that. Yeah. I mean, I like it, but it’s been a fun industry to dip our toes in. That’s cool. And it’s continued to expand across, again, our footprint in the Gulf South. I mean, it’s,

Conrad Meyer:
You think of Louisiana, okay, because I’ve been asked this. Okay. I know right now medical marijuana, Louisiana

Beau Haynes:
Got

Conrad Meyer:
The green light.

Beau Haynes:
So

Conrad Meyer:
Where I’m going with this,

Beau Haynes:
Where

Conrad Meyer:
Is Louisiana going to become a recreational state down the road? Do you think that’s in that cards? Or is now the medical marijuana lobby going to try to stop that?

Beau Haynes:
So that’s a good question. Well, and I also don’t know if it’ll be interesting to see if it’s rescheduled or descheduled on a federal level. How does that, because

Conrad Meyer:
Hasn’t

Beau Haynes:
Happened yet. Yeah. So how does that reconcile? I thought Biden might want to do that. I think I saw it this week in the A H L A. I think they put forth maybe a reschedule. So they bump it from a schedule one to a two to where they could do other things with it that they can’t do now, research and things like that. But how does that trickle down on the state level? Because right now,

Conrad Meyer:
Well, then the banks would

Beau Haynes:
Open up. The banks would open up, but then right now it’s essentially a state-based regulatory scheme for medical marijuana or adult use, depending on where you are. Before Louisiana, will the Beauard of Pharmacy and L D H still regulate it, even if it’s adult use or rec use? And I wonder if in Louisiana, they made a conscious effort to focus on making sure that the Beauard of pharmacy would kind of control the dispensary. So it’s looked at as any other pharmacy.

Conrad Meyer:
Yeah.

Beau Haynes:
Well,

Conrad Meyer:
That’s why the university’s doing

Beau Haynes:
It. Exactly. And so for right now, I think it’s controlled in Louisiana, I think in a good way. But I don’t know what happens. Let’s say, and this is totally without any type of knowledge or it is totally anecdotal, is if it went rec use, would the nine or 10 dispensaries be the only places you could get it? It doesn’t really change in terms of access. Does that make sense?

Conrad Meyer:
No, that makes sense.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. And then do you control it from a supply chain standpoint on the cultivation side? Does it stay with Southern and L S U and so the market’s still controlled just to guard against some of the traditional concerns over marijuana?

Conrad Meyer:
Yeah, I could see that.

Beau Haynes:
That would be my view. But I mean, ironically, because I think Louisiana gets a reputation that maybe is probably valid of being 50th or close to it in a lot of things. I mean, for,

Conrad Meyer:
Excuse me, for

Beau Haynes:
Medical marijuana, they were one of the early adopters. It was just more of a controlled environment, and they phased in the regulatory security.

Conrad Meyer:
I remember, just so you know this, I went to Ole Miss, that was my undergrad. Speaking of marijuana. This happened before medical marijuana even was a thing. They had the only legal marijuana growth or whatever it was in Oxford, because the government, I think the F D A

Beau Haynes:
Was doing

Conrad Meyer:
Some kind of tests with it, whatever. And I remember being told that if you drove around that, I mean, they had spotlights and guard towers, and they were like roving patrols. It was a big, like a penitentiary. I mean, it was big.

Beau Haynes:
The security controls on these dispensaries are the requirements that in order to operate as a dispensary, just

Conrad Meyer:
An example.

Beau Haynes:
And then

Conrad Meyer:
You don’t just walk in there willy

Beau Haynes:
Nilly. And then the Grove facility is the same thing. And Mississippi just went live in the last year or so with its program. I

Conrad Meyer:
Didn’t know that. Wow.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah. Medical only not as controlled. And in terms of who can enter the marketplace. So you and I, if we met the license requirements, could conceivably get a license to grow, process dispense, whatever, provided we met the statutory requirements. Let’s

Conrad Meyer:
Coffee here.

Beau Haynes:
That’s all right. So anyway,

Conrad Meyer:
I think it’s going to be interesting.

Beau Haynes:
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Conrad Meyer:
My kids coughed. No, I got

Beau Haynes:
It.

Conrad Meyer:
Anyway. Well, look, I think I’m curious if we’re going to become a wreck state. Oh, wow.

Beau Haynes:
I think it’d probably, again saying without any knowledge, five to 10 years,

Conrad Meyer:
Excuse me. Well, five to 10. Well, look, you have the industry control now. It’ll be interesting. I think what we do is so interesting.

Beau Haynes:
Yes,

Conrad Meyer:
I agree. I really enjoy what we do,

Beau Haynes:
And we’ve covered a lot of ground here today on a variety of different things. So

Conrad Meyer:
I’m just happy you came in the studio.

Beau Haynes:
I

Conrad Meyer:
Mean, I’ve been trying to get you here for a while. Well,

Beau Haynes:
I mean, we got this beautiful view. I mean, like I told you,

Conrad Meyer:
The people can’t see this, but it’s overlooking the lake. You got

Beau Haynes:
This beautiful view. It’s the canal place of Jefferson Parish, like I told you.

Conrad Meyer:
Is that what we call it? Yes. That’s I’m calling. You can tell

Beau Haynes:
Your partners aBeauut, yeah. Canal Place of Jefferson Parish.

Conrad Meyer:
Look, I really appreciate that. And let me just say this. I don’t want this to be the only time we do this.

Beau Haynes:
I

Conrad Meyer:
Want you to come back.

Beau Haynes:
No, let’s keep doing it. What have we been talking aBeauut? 40, 45 minutes. We could be doing this. We could talk another hour.

Conrad Meyer:
We could on a specific topic. But I want to thank you for coming down. I really do. And let’s continue this going forward. So

Beau Haynes:
I would love to be a special guest contributor or whatever.

Conrad Meyer:
I would love that, because we do do different things, and I think it’d be great for the audience to listen to some of that. And look, if you’re an audience member too, if you have an issue or a topic, please send us an email. My email cmm@shehardy.com. Beau, what’s your email?

Beau Haynes:
It’s Beau dot Haynes, h a y n e s at Phelps. P h e l p s.com.

Conrad Meyer:
See? See, we don’t discriminate here. We are open to all views

Beau Haynes:
In all law firms,

Conrad Meyer:
Right? All law firms. Well, to me, it’s aBeauut information.

Beau Haynes:
Right, right. I agree. I

Conrad Meyer:
Mean, look, there’s only a cadre of people that do what we do, and I’m happy to know you for as long as I have.

Beau Haynes:
I appreciate that. And I’ve known you for the last 15 years as a friend and colleague and teaching with you. It’s been a lot of fun. So I appreciate you inviting me on, and I look forward to the next time, my friend.

Conrad Meyer:
Absolutely. Well, look, everyone, thank you very much for listening this episode on Health Law Talk at Chehardy Sherman Williams. Again, Beau Haynes, thank you for coming in. Conrad Meyer at the microphone. Enjoy. Send us your comments if you will. Have a great week and do whatever you do best you do you.

Intro:
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