Rory Bellina (00:15):
Hello everyone and welcome to Help Law Talk, presented by Chehardy Sherman Williams. Before we get started, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and YouTube – links in the description below. We hope you enjoy this episode.

Conrad Meyer (00:36):
Good morning everyone. Welcome to another edition of Health Law Talk here. At Chehardy, Sherman Williams. Conrad Meyer in the studio with

Rory Bellina (00:43):
Rory Bellina. Good morning everyone.

Conrad Meyer (00:44):
Good morning. Good morning,

Rory Bellina (00:45):
Rory. Morning.

Conrad Meyer (00:47):
How are you

Rory Bellina (00:47):
Today? Doing well. Doing well. It’s a Friday, so it’s, it’s a, it’s good things are

Conrad Meyer (00:52):
Going on and people, people don know this, but we actually try to record on Fridays. Yes. for

Rory Bellina (00:57):
The following week.

Conrad Meyer (00:58):
The following week. Right. So, so but today we, we, we came here bright and early. We’re gonna talk about something interesting and something that, that I really, I think it just sort of goes unnoticed. Sure. And it talks about the hidden costs of Covid.

Rory Bellina (01:13):
Yes. Yeah. And there’s so many different aspects and, and hidden costs involved. So we just thought it’s a, this is just be more of a conversational podcast and talk about the hidden costs of Covid that you and I have experienced with our clients. And,

Conrad Meyer (01:26):
And, and, and we can start off at, I I would say that it’s not just applicable to healthcare providers. We’re talking about businesses in general and, and things like that. So, so with that being said, one of, I mean, one of the obvious things when this, when this pandemic first started, I know that from a supply chain side, that the providers, the large system providers some of them weren’t prepared for the amount of P P E that was gonna be needed to, to, to handle the pandemic.

Rory Bellina (01:53):
Right. I think the biggest supply, you know, right when the start, like you mentioned, was there was a run on the masks that, that seemed to be the biggest thing. And then after that, it was, you know, there was the hand sanitizers and the soaps that seemed big, big thing, at least here in New Orleans.

Conrad Meyer (02:08):
Well, disinfectant, Lysol, you know, anything, any disinfectant that was sprayed was

Rory Bellina (02:14):
Out. Yeah. We had a lot of local breweries here that luckily stepped up and they started, you know, they switched out from making alcohol to making hand sanitizer with, with their ethanol. So it was a big that seemed to be the big thing. And then it shifted over to some of the non, some other things, such as like the floor markings where people should stand. you know, the, the plexiglass, the signage. Signage was a big thing. you know, putting up barriers between areas where there

Conrad Meyer (02:42):
Was a lot of people. But when you look at it, when you go back to the beginning of the pandemic and you look at when, you know, when, when we first started, I mean, you’re looking at March, April, 2020 May in that, that first three months. Okay. and, and you realize coincided with the messages from the government, Wear a mask, Don’t wear a mask. You don’t need a mask. Wear one mask, two mask. Mm-hmm. , you know, cuz it was the fir. Cuz when you first came out it was, No, you don’t need a mask now you need

Rory Bellina (03:10):
A mask. Right. And it was very unclear. What, what was a mask? Was it just a cloth? Was

Conrad Meyer (03:13):
It Right, Was it a cloth a a 95 or what does it to matter? But,

Rory Bellina (03:17):
But it be just the bandana, there was a lot of confusion with, with what

Conrad Meyer (03:21):
Was a mask. Absolut. Yes. So the, my, my point was, was that I’m wondering if there was a coordinated message here that the hospital association, and I didn’t, I didn’t know, I’m just thinking about this, was behind the scenes, telling the government, don’t, don’t tell ’em, don’t, it’s okay. They don’t need a mask because we’re running out of masks. I

Rory Bellina (03:37):
Know that. I, I remember hearing that. I think it was around April and May. That was when I believe at least our governor said, Don’t, don’t try to purchase these N 95 s. We really need to save these for our healthcare workers. Right. And well, that’s when everyone realized, well, we, we probably need these then because if if they’re using them, then we need them. But there were, there was that message that, you know, you, you know, buy something that was less, because we don’t, we don’t have the supply at this, at this point.

Conrad Meyer (04:04):
Right. And, and I, and also, I mean, very quickly we realized, well, wait a minute. All the manufacturing for the masks, the, the, the disinfectants and all these other PPE type things was overseas.

Rory Bellina (04:16):
Correct. Right.

Conrad Meyer (04:17):
So we’re like, well, wait a minute. We we’re not gonna be able to get this anytime soon. Right. And real, they So that was a big wake up call

Rory Bellina (04:25):
Because they were fighting the same virus that way that you That’s correct. Correct. And then for the people that were trying to generate it here, they shut down because they were having outbreaks or they, we were trying to be proactive and didn’t when people in their factories.

Conrad Meyer (04:37):
So we learned a lot of lessons from this.

Rory Bellina (04:38):
We did. And there was a lot of, you know, like we, the, the theme of today’s show is the hidden cost of, of Covid 19. I think one of the biggest costs was, you know, being prepared. You know, God forbid this happens again, but being prepared and the cost associated with having enough p p for whatever business you’re in. If this, if this happens again, I think, you know, a lot of businesses never thought, Okay, I need, you know hand sanitizer stations, I, I don’t need mask. I don’t need plexiglass. There was just a lot of you know, a lot of gyms needed to, you know, start cleaning a lot more and cleaning in between uses restaurants, You know, they, they probably only wiped down their, their chairs and tables at the end of the night. Now they’re doing it between every person and they’re printing out disposable menus. I mean, it, it trickles down to really every business. They had a huge just cost increase for trying to do things to the, to slow the spread of this virus.

Conrad Meyer (05:35):
And, and, and I think I agree with that. A hundred percent agree with that. I also think that if you look back to Katrina, you know, we’re in Orleans, so we look back at Katrina Sure. And after Katrina, every hospital in the New Orleans area that flooded, you know, from downtown Tulane charity Sure. All those, they suddenly, it was emergency preparedness. Right. What, what do we need to do

Rory Bellina (06:00):
To that? Power was a a the biggest priority

Conrad Meyer (06:03):
Then. Absolutely. And so, so the problem was was, you know, we need to have emergency preparedness. And there was a flood of CLEs and education programs with, you know, all over in various sectors of the business Yep. About emergency

Rory Bellina (06:16):
Preparedness. And there was a push to move a lot of your imaging and critical care to higher floors in your building.

Conrad Meyer (06:21):
Right? Yeah, exactly. Yep. So, so now, so that was lessons from Katrina that sort of systemically moved into the business sector, various forms. Right now we have the pandemic and lessons learned from that. So now we have the p p, we’ve got you know, the supply chain side. So, so what if I’m vendor, if I’m materials management in a large system, you know, what am I going to do to prepare myself where I’m stocking and for, for my facilities, but not overstocking, but making sure that we have an adequate supply chain for our

Rory Bellina (06:57):
Providers. And you have to make sure that across all businesses, that you’re gonna have to add and allocate money to that budget to where, you know, you’re buying more towels, more cleaning supplies. That’s the cost.

Conrad Meyer (07:08):
And that’s,

Rory Bellina (07:09):
That’s the cost. That’s the cost. You know, every business, I would say is now purchasing more cleaning supplies than they ever had. And they’re, they’re having to, they’re having to allocate staff to clean. They’re having to hire more cleaning, you know, a cleaning company come in every night. Or, you know, you see a lot of companies will have these kind of UV robots that go across, or they’ll, they’ll, they’re bringing in companies to, to spray down their buildings every night. And they’ve got the little sticker on the door saying that they’re clean and sanitized. That’s a huge hidden cost of, of covid is, is the materials and the cleaning.

Conrad Meyer (07:40):
And you got staffing too. So you might have to hire more people to scan screen.

Rory Bellina (07:44):
And that’s, Yeah, that’s what I wanted to segue right into is let’s talk about the hidden cost. Let’s talk about it on a personnel side. What have been the, the, the, the shift since this has occurred to staffing? You know, where have you seen that change?

Conrad Meyer (07:58):
I’ve seen, like, for example, points of entry now have been limited Sure. So that they can scan and, and now it’s progressed because of the vaccine. So now we have various points of entry that before you would be able to go anywhere to get into a facility, for example, now you, you can only go in certain places where you show your vaccine man, you know, vaccine proof of vaccine, proof of, of negative covid test or to be scanned for your current symptoms. Sure. Things like that. So you need personnel to man that and actively monitor people who are coming ingress, egress outta your, outta your

Rory Bellina (08:32):
Facility. And I think another hidden goth, I was speaking with someone that’s in hotel administration. She was explaining to me that they’ve had to double their support staff for cleaning. And it’s not just the people that clean the rooms when you check out, because that’s, that’s isolated to you that, that, that really hasn’t changed. But the people that are just kind of walking around and wiping down the check in counter and, and cleaning the bathrooms, I mean, mean that’s been a, and I’m sure on, on the hospital side, it’s been the same thing. You know, hospitals are required to be, you know, very clean Right. By, by regulation. But I’m sure they’ve had to increase that as

Conrad Meyer (09:07):
Well. I am sure the environmental services department has had to really beef up Sure. Their personnel and as, as well as their supplies. Sure, sure. You’re not gonna get out around

Rory Bellina (09:17):
That. No, no. And I, and I think another big increase that you’re seeing is you’re seeing you know, businesses. And we, we go back to the hospital aspect of, you know, when Covid hit, another hidden cost was they were having to pay for, we talked about cleaning, you know, having to do more cleaning for clothing for, you know, for their different providers. And another thing was childcare. You know, childcare is another hidden cost that was big with this. So they had to pay for, during this emergency, which we’re still under, they were allowed to pay for, you know, childcare for their staff. And, and that’s a, that’s a, a huge hidden cost that I don’t think that they were prepared to take on to keep their workers there during the thick of the

Conrad Meyer (10:00):
Pandemic. So, so the thing about revenue generators for businesses, whether it’s a facility or not. Sure. you got combined, like, you know, maybe do you, do you make revenue not only from seeing patients in the facility? So we’ve got elective procedures that were at a point shut down. Right? You’ve got only covid patients. So you, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re losing your elective revenue you know, six feet social distancing. So the cafeteria’s not gonna be as packed as it usually is. Right. So you’re losing that revenue. and I mean, especially even for like say a business, say a restaurant. I mean, so, so it’s almost like a perfect storm where you, you have less people because of the social distancing, more cost for personnel to monitor and adhere to. Right. More cost for cleaning supplies and, and, and ppe it’s like a perfect storm. And you, during, during the pandemic,

Rory Bellina (10:52):
And it was really about, I would say not for all businesses, but like you mentioned the restaurant business. Right. It had to have been a lose losee for them. I mean, they’re trying to do the right thing and, and they were all trying to do what was required to stay open. But like you mentioned, they, they’re having to increase their costs for, you know, whether it be, you know, paper menus or cleaning supplies. They’re having to only at one point in Orleans Parish was I think a 25% capacity. Then we went to 50 and 75, but then still maintain that six feet of distance. So they have more costs, they’ve got less tables and, you know, less people being allowed to come in it, like you said, it was, it was the perfect storm.

Conrad Meyer (11:29):
And, and for the restaurants for example, where you, you’re gonna have to pass that cost on to, to survive. So I mean, your food price are getting higher, your menu price are getting higher. But then at what point does the market bear and says, Well, you know, we’re not gonna pay 18 $20 for my, my hamburger for, Right, right, right. I’m just not gonna do it. So, so then at what point, where, where’s the equilibrium? And but see with hospitals, with facilities, you don’t get that choice because you’re under payer contracts. Right? Right. You, you can’t pass the cost on because you’re under

Rory Bellina (12:01):
Contracts. Right. So you’re just, you’re, you’re taking a loss or you’re, you’re, you’re finding something to put it under, but it, it’s really hard under the hospital model.

Conrad Meyer (12:08):
Absolutely. So, so on the provider side and the healthcare industry, most of the providers or facilities are under contracts. and even the ones that aren’t under contract, I mean, you know, it’s a small percentage Sure. As opposed to, I’d say a majority of providers, so that you’re, you’re, you’re stuck. Right. Who are you gonna pass the cost onto

Rory Bellina (12:27):
Right Now, one thing I, that’s been interesting throughout this and, and even now, is it, you know, it looks like we’re, hopefully we’re done with the Delta variant and we’re, we’re moving out of this is, you know, are

Conrad Meyer (12:38):
We, I don’t know. I mean,

Rory Bellina (12:39):
I hope so.

Conrad Meyer (12:40):
I would hope

Rory Bellina (12:40):
So. One thing that I found interesting though is even as I continue to get, you know, new employment agreements or, or, you know, entities or providers that are still hiring people, is that they’re still paying them the same, The, the, the compensation, at least from what I’ve seen, is not going down. Or at least it doesn’t seem to be going down yet. What, what have you seen on that?

Conrad Meyer (13:01):
I, I’ve seen the comp, the comp levels, you know, pretty much stay the same Sure. Or actually increase simply because the labor market, depending on the, on the position we’re talking about. Right. the labor market is just not what it used to be. Right. Right. It’s not what it used to be. So,

Rory Bellina (13:17):
So maybe the compensation can’t come down because the provide the facilities are desperate for, for the staff.

Conrad Meyer (13:24):
Well, well on the, I mean, you know, on a different note, but we’re gonna pivot for a second. You don’t, you have the compensation model staying the same or, or, or can’t come down. Now you’re reading in the news now about, you know, inflation and inflationary pressure. So, so the money that you’re getting paid now is actually worth less. Right. Right. And so, you know, do you have to, you know, do you raise your, do you raise your, your comp models to meet that? I mean, you know, what, where, at what point, you know, where, where does the perfect storm end?

Rory Bellina (13:55):
Yeah. I think we still don’t know. I think we really don’t, like you said on the hospital model, it’s, you can’t, you can only pass off these costs so many ways. And I think they’ve just been absorbing a lot of them. And I think relying on, on federal, you know, federal funds to assist with that. But it’s, that’s another, that’s another hidden cost is, you know, a lot of these hospitals have had to bring in evaluators and third party firms to help them, you know, apply for these different funds and, and, and get these, get these benefits. But then you’ve got, you know repayment obligations. You’ve gotta, you know, make sure that you are, you know, you’re valuing your business properly and that you’re not either overstating your understating cuz you don’t wanna be on the hook for something that you don’t, you’re not responsible for.

(14:37):
There’s, it’s another hidden cost is, you know, a lot of these businesses that are up and running now, this is the first time that they’re reaching out for, you know, federal assistance and they’re, they’re being asked for documents that they might not have had or they’re being asked for, you know, know reports for things that, I think that that was another, that was one call that, that I received a lot, I’d say about a year ago was business coming in and just asking, you know, what is this that they’re asking for these reports? We’ve never done these before. You know, this is the first time I’m having to talk to an attorney because I just don’t know what they need at this point.

Conrad Meyer (15:09):
And we did the, the last week’s episode on, on E I D L loans, Right. with Adam and we talked about that and, and, and what, what is available to businesses from the sba Right. Under the covid E I D L loans. So there are, there are relief mechanisms for that. And I understand where you’re going. Mm-hmm. , I mean, it’s, it’s some, some business has never done this before. Sure, sure. So, so I guess when you look back at the hidden cost of covid, when you look at it from a standpoint of supplies and excess of supplies your personnel, right. Your the inability to, to generate revenue based on different mandates Right. Whether it’s social distancing or so much capacity. Right.

Rory Bellina (15:53):
Or a vaccine mandate.

Conrad Meyer (15:54):
Well, the vaccine mandate, I mean, I mean, right now you, you’re looking in the news and you’re seeing hundreds of people just not, not, you know, and, and as their, their right to choose not to do this. Sure. and and getting terminated. And, and the interesting thing, we did a show on that because we did the show on the OSHA ets. Yes. the emergency the emergency temporary standard which that rule, which, which was supposedly, you know, coming from the White house’s direction on the a hundred more employees hasn’t even been written yet.

Rory Bellina (16:27):
No, no. We still don’t know what that’s gonna look like. No. So we’ve got employers preparing for it, but we don’t know. And, and in that, in that standard, like, like you mentioned on our previous episode, there were so many hidden costs that an employer would have to either, you know, bear the grunt of whether I believe it was weekly testing for the employees that chose not to be vaccinated. Who’s gonna, who would have to pay for that? You know, that’s another,

Conrad Meyer (16:51):
The employer’s not gonna pay for that. I mean, I think they’re gonna make the employee pay for that

Rory Bellina (16:55):
Another, but that’s another hidden cost. Are you gonna increase your employee’s compensation or make that come out of kind of come out of their pocket? You know, we’ve had a lot of employers say that before there was a vaccine that they were requir requiring testing to come to work. You know, that was another hidden cost that these companies were having to pay for their employees to come into

Conrad Meyer (17:15):
Work. Well, you have a lot of, of, of moving parts here, right? You’ve got you know, every, I mean, think about, think about the fluidity of all the things we just talked about from, you know, ppe, the mandates, the personnel, now the hyperinflation comp model, loss of revenue and, and now mandates that you’re, you could, that could prevent, you, could prevent you from hiring enough personnel to run your business.

Rory Bellina (17:45):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a huge hidden cost. And, and it’s not even really hidden at this point. It’s that it’s gonna be a rule,

Conrad Meyer (17:51):
Not even a cost. I mean, you’re talking about possibly not being able to operate, you know, instead of, like for example, if you’re a hospital and you’ve got multiple different critical care areas and you don’t have enough nurses to run those, you can’t operate that because the licensure standards require so many things, so many more. Right. You know, so you can’t, you won’t be able to comply. You’ll have to shut that down. Yep. Yep. And, and, and how much revenue are we losing from that?

Rory Bellina (18:15):
It could be a big one,

Conrad Meyer (18:16):
You know, for facilities be big loss. Were looking at, so I’m looking at from a healthcare standpoint, but imagine other, other businesses who for various reasons aren’t gonna be able to hire higher staff. Right. If, depending on what they choose. I mean, the, we haven’t even seen the rule yet, but No, we don’t. What, we don’t know what says, you know, But

Rory Bellina (18:33):
We’ll definitely do an updated episode once that rule comes

Conrad Meyer (18:36):
Out. Oh, we’re gonna absolutely do that. I mean, I can’t wait to read it.

Rory Bellina (18:40):
I know, I know. I think it’s gonna be really interesting. There’s gonna be a lot of back and forth, you know, it, we’re, we’re kind of segueing off topic, but I think it’s fine. Yeah. You know, I’m hearing a lot over the last two days I’ve gotten two different phone calls about exemptions from the vaccine mandates. So I think that, I think that that’s, that’s, that’s a hidden where things are. That’s another hidden call Yeah.

Conrad Meyer (19:01):
Cost. Because like you said, I mean, I, I, I, funny you said that. I have a, I had a call the other day from a physician client who had a medical exemption Yep. Medical exemption, and sent that medical exemption to a, I guess a board that reviews these at this facility. Sure. And the board is made up of non-medical personnel. That’s interesting. That is interesting. Or some medical, some non-medical but denied this person’s medical exemption. So now the question is, well, what do

Rory Bellina (19:33):
You do and what are the, Yeah, what are the costs associated with, I mean, we could talk about the cost of that, but, but what do you do if it’s, what do you do? Is there an appeal procedure in place or any,

Conrad Meyer (19:42):
Well, we’re not talking about medical staff bylaws where we have the appeal process and a fair hearing plan, for example, we’re talking about someone I don’t know if is That’s a good question. That’s another hidden cost

Rory Bellina (19:52):
Sure.

Conrad Meyer (19:53):
To do. Does an HR have a mechanism for employees to send these exemptions in? And if they get rejected, what’s the appeal process and and at what point do you stop it?

Rory Bellina (20:07):
I don’t. Yeah. I, I don’t know what, I think it’s so new and it’s so fluid that it, it’s just unclear. But you’re right. Another cost associated with that is having to put that board together, meet now what’s, what’s, what happens if you lose that physician provider now,

Conrad Meyer (20:23):
Now you have, or,

Rory Bellina (20:24):
Or he decides to sue you. Right. Or sue, sue the entity. It’s another, it’s another cost that’s gonna come involved for something.

Conrad Meyer (20:31):
You’ll, you’ll have a you know, maybe an ADA action right. In in Amer a disability action,

Rory Bellina (20:38):
Unlawful termination.

Conrad Meyer (20:39):
Unlawful termination. You know, you never made a reasonable accommodation. and, and you never, you know, you never, you never know. but I agree with you, the, this whole thing has morphed over the last year and a half almost two ye gosh, it’s almost two years. Two

Rory Bellina (20:56):
Years. Yeah. Two

Conrad Meyer (20:57):
Years. Yeah. Yeah. It’s been a minute.

Rory Bellina (21:00):
Yeah. But it, but you’re right, it’s, it’s, it’s changed into, like you said, it’s kind of the, the, the phrase of flying the plane as you build it or flying the plane as you’re learning to that, I think that’s kind of what’s happening right now is these regulations are coming out so fast and employers are doing their best, trying to keep up with them. Trying to put into, into place, like in your example, some sort of objective criteria to review these exemptions. But, you know, what’s the appeal process? Where does it go after that? You know, it, it, it’s so unclear. Those are, and it all adds in, is, you know, everything that that’s going on related to covid has a cost, You know, because there, there’s no manual for this. This isn’t really never happened before. At least that I could think of a good example. There’s so many costs involved in, in doing this. And, and it’s just unclear where this goes.

Conrad Meyer (21:49):
And also, I mean, for that, that physician client, for example, they’re gonna have to decide, do I pay an attorney to go file a lawsuit for me against the facility? And, and what do I do with that? So there’s a money factor involved with that. And of course, on the facility side, we got to defend the lawsuit if one happens. You know, It just, it’s just a, it’s just a series of, of unfortunate events. And I think you’re right. Everyone’s learning on the

Rory Bellina (22:17):
Fly. Yeah. It really is. You know,

Conrad Meyer (22:19):
It really is. So, I, I, I don’t know where this goes. I don’t know either. I don’t know. I, I, I just, I would be, I would love to see the books from a facility to see the, the variances in supply side. Absolutely. Materials management side, and especially so environmental and nursing, I mean, I mean your, your, your biggest expense in any business is your personnel. And that’s so true in facilities. So I would love to see what are the expenses we are occurring as far as nursing goes. Right. And environmental goes, because that to me, that those would be the two major ones that I would look at on on the Covid side, just cuz they have, cuz of what we’re seeing. Yeah.

Rory Bellina (22:57):
I mean, those had to have shot up during the part of

Conrad Meyer (23:00):
This. Oh yes, absolutely. So we’re gonna have to, I mean, I guess we’re gonna have to figure this out. you know, but, but definitely there’s, there’s, there’s a lot to think about when you’re thinking about the hidden cost of covid. All of those things come into play for any

Rory Bellina (23:19):
Business. Yeah. And they, they’ve all impacted in the, the full spectrum of businesses. And, and like, like we mentioned, there’s been government help and government assistance, but that can only go so far and last for so long. And I think, you know, fortunately and unfortunately some of these hidden costs that businesses have, have incurred, you know, might become, might become requirements now one where restaurants, I, I don’t know. It, it might not, you know, there could be requirements to, to keep these changes in place where things have to be clean at a higher frequency and, and that kind of thing. So. We’ll, we’ll see.

Conrad Meyer (23:52):
Well, great. Well, listen, thank you very much Rory, for bringing this thought topic to the to the forefront today. Thank you. We appreciate that. And listen, for everyone who is who is a listener here, we really appreciate your continued support of the podcast. And if you like what you hear, please make sure you subscribe to the podcast and if you have a comment or a question, you can always email us. You we’re pretty easy to find on the website. www.chehardy.com. and you can find Rory Bellina, Conrad Meyer there, email us, drop us a line, tell us how you feel. but again, we look forward to our next episode next week. So everyone have a great weekend and thanks for spending time with us and we’ll see you soon.

Rory Bellina (24:38):
Thank you for listening to Health Law Talk presented by Chehardy Sherman Williams. For more information or to contact us, please visit our website – links in the description below. Also, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, in YouTube – links in the description below. Thank you for listening.